Let's Talk about Upvoting Bonuses
Steem Basic Income
Steem Basic Income is a social experiment to bring a voluntary crowd-funded basic income to as many Steemians as possible. Members join by sponsoring others into the program. Steem Basic Income is delivered through regular upvotes to member content.
Let's Have a Talk
Yesterday in our update, we wrote the following:
We are exploring the possibility of phasing out the upvoting bonuses, as this 'vote for vote' aspect of our program has been increasingly criticized in the new Steem environment. It was introduced to help us build a sustainable SP base and is ancillary to our overall objectives, so we are willing to let it go if doing so will protect our members. If you have a strong opinion either way, please let us know in the comments section to help inform our final decision.
Today we discovered this post where we responded and then resteemed. Here is most of our response, verbatim.
Is SBI 'Old Steem'?
The way #steembasicincome works is if you send one still and say an account name, both of you will get 1 share. You can also get 1 share for every 2 Steem you delegate. The more shares you have the faster your 'subscription balance' increases. This is the balance that is used to give you votes. Also, if you upvote their comments and any of their 10 or so accounts, you can increase your balance by more than 100% of your vote.
We think of this as three separate value streams. While they aggregate into the total votes people receive, each stream has its own particular rules. In approaching this discussion, I would like to handle each stream separately.
- If you send 1 STEEM and specify an account name, you each get 1 unit.
This is the original mechanism that has never been changed since SBI launched almost 2 years ago. This was designed explicitly to be an account-level curation. You sponsor an account for 1 STEEM worth of lifetime upvotes. In doing so, you essentially receive 50% curation (you also get 1 STEEM present value of lifetime upvotes). This feature attracts very minimal abuse because the time to ROI is very long. It's the mechanism that contest uses, and that results in SBI supporting many valuable causes and accounts. We still believe this model is net-positive for Steem, and we don't plan to change it.
- You can also get 1 share for every 2 Steem you delegate.
There are pros and cons to this. It has been normal throughout Steem history for services to offer various levels of rewards to members that delegate. Delegation also allows members to support (and be supported by) Steem Basic Income without having to send liquid STEEM and trust us to keep delivering upvotes. While we have built a good track record of reliability, it's important to keep an open channel that allows members to support and benefit from our project without having to send liquid STEEM after initial enrollment.
Delegation is also a common way for whale accounts to get consistent large upvotes. We are considering making adjustments to the calculations to decrease the benefits of delegation some. My preference here would be for members to earn a fair return on delegation, while allowing it to skew toward supporting smaller accounts instead of whales. This is already happening organically because of the role our curation returns play in delegation rewards. If we decide more needs to be done after addressing upvoting bonuses, then we will.
- Also, if you upvote their comments and any of their 10 or so accounts, you can increase your balance by more than 100% of your vote.
This is the area that is our biggest concern, and the area we want to address. This was introduced to help us build a sustainable SP base and to help other programs do the same. Before HF21, there was very little abuse here (although not zero), and the small abuse that we saw was usually addressed quickly by our blacklists. (We have followed @steemcleaners and @buildawhale blacklists automatically since our automation was released. This is covered in our FAQ.)
Since HF22, many large accounts have shifted from bid-bots to vote-swapping services. This has upset the balance of abuse, and my own concerns about our voting trends have risen exponentially. In many cases, the accounts we vote are not bad enough for blacklisting, but not good enough to justify the votes that our upvoting rewards are returning to them.
We would like to phase out upvoting bonuses completely over a period of 10 to 12 weeks.
We believe there is a role for stake-based rewards within the overall content-oriented curation schema, but we do not believe that having stake should be the sole determinant of who gets rewarded.
SBI's native sponsoring system was designed so that members could 'crowdsource' support, stacking it to that point where it would be equivalent to whale-level support... an internal patreon-like model that offers greater stability and reduced risk of subscriber-flight.
Since we do actively support thousands of accounts and over 1500 accounts benefit from our upvoting rewards, we do not think it appropriate to turn the model on a dime and cancel upvoting rewards without opening discussion with our members.
While many other programs were able to change quickly to 'manual' curation, they were able to do so because their systems were entirely transactional. They made no promises and, once each paid upvote was delivered, owed nothing more to their customers . We have instead built long-term relationships and a community of active supporters that use SBI as a tool to support their passion projects. It would be unethical for us to make major changes without public discussion and an attempt to build consensus.
To that end, we will cross-post this long-form response into tonight's update, with a link to your post.
One problem with downvoting to your hearts content is down vote revenge. Personally, I find it is the worst reason to downvote. It's even worse than downvoting because you disagree with someone's opinion.
We agree with this completely. We have never engaged in revenge downvotes, although we have sometimes been more aggressive in penalizing other forms of abuse when we receive revenge downvotes. We do sometimes mark accounts that downvote us to not receive upvotes anymore, but that's a separate response.
When we've been downvoted, we try to engage and discuss potential issues with that person. In most cases, they have at least decided that we are not harmful, or that we are less harmful than other potential downvote targets. In some cases they continue downvoting us and we let them do so without retaliation.
We have never penalized any member or cancelled their subscriptions for speaking out against SBI (though when people are publicly critical, they often request us to cancel their subscriptions or assign to somebody else). One reason we advocate a crowd-sourced basic income is because a 'universal' basic income is extremely vulnerable to political changes and censorship.
We also never downvote over disagreement with content.
The Proposal
We would like to reduce the Multiplier used for our upvote bonuses by 0.10 per week until it reduces to 0. Author rewards will continue to be part of our sustainability metrics. As the upvote bonuses gradually decrease, members can choose whether to withdraw their upvotes or continue to support our work 'organically' rather than for the rewards.
The gradual reduction period would give members plenty of time to realize the changes and stop voting if they don't want to support us organically. Depending on how the discussion goes over the next week, the first reduction will be applied in one week. Since upvote bonuses apply after posts pay out, that means everything we publish after this post could be after the first bonus reduction.
What do you think?
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Enrollment
To enroll in Steem Basic Income, or to increase the level of basic income that you receive, enrollment is pretty straightforward:
Just send 1 STEEM to @steembasicincome. Include the name of a Steemian to sponsor in the transaction memo (preceded by @). You and the person you sponsor will each receive 1 share in the program. You can sponsor any active Steemian (excluding yourself), it does not have to be a current member. Multiples of 1 STEEM are also fine (e.g. 5 STEEM with one name means 5 SBI for each of you).
Increasing your subscription level results in more frequent upvotes until you are being upvoted on every post. Then it results in larger upvotes instead.
Please check out our full transaction memo guidelines and let us know if you have any questions.
https://steemit.com/basicincome/@steembasicincome/transaction-memo-guidelines
The official currency for enrollment is STEEM. We accept SBD at our discretion but you do not receive extra value or any partial refund for paying in SBD instead of STEEM. If we choose to accept an SBD enrollment, we accept the entire amount. If we choose to reject it, we refund the entire amount and request you to send STEEM instead. Enrollments are processed automatically every 144 minutes.
Questions about Steem Basic Income?
Most questions are addressed in our FAQ or in these helpful resources. If you still have questions, ask in the comments section or join us in our discord server.
!sbi status
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Hi @arabisouri!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.Weekly Contest since 2018 - Lifetime Upvotes by Steem Basic Income
Be a winner and get 4 shares 🔖🔖🔖🔖 of Steem Basic Income for your lifetime upvotes. Have a look at my blog... @retinox
You can receive even more SBI shares by gambling @peekbit‘s upvote game too…
It's good to see this explanation and information publically... being a writer for SBI I like to be able to have sources for other's who might have questions or concerns, that I simply can't answer. This is a continued positive step forward, and one made with the usual transparency.
I would invite everyone to come to the @steembasicincome Discord, or just voice your opinions, ideas, and concerns here...
Thank you for this informative post...
I'd say phasing it out would be for the best. Cheers to you for paying attention to community sentiment!
On steem?
Self proclaimed community watchdogs are actually hacking and stalking people.
This group https://steemit.com/@steemspeak is ran by https://steemit.com/@fyrstikken, They are hacking people that enter this discord server https://discordapp.com/invite/sqxV63P . Once you are hacked they profile you long enough to know all of your activities. They introduce workplace gangstalking visits and bring it to your attention cleverly and discretly so only you get it. They are very covert and tricky with everthing they say and do in this server. Some claim to have worked for or are working with the FBI and the NSA. Mixed with decomisioned traders and coding criminals, Its a scary mix of creepy people and thier intent is to drive you crazy and deplete everything you have ever aquired in life, even your freedom.
My hacking started with them introducing ransomeware that has options, dump my coin or delete my system drive. They acnowledged this to me in the server as it happened.
This hacking and stalking is done so they can manipulate the target to pump and dump for them. Threating and Making victims wear head phones, so nobody in your household can hear thier dramitization towards you. In 2017 this server was sidemarked as a drama show for entertainment purposes only as en excuse to say whatever they want all the way down to killing a politician. They have a server side command called "hey asshole" making a promt come up instructing everyone to wear headphones. They want everyone wearing headphones so nobody in your vicinity can hear them mess with you. Fystikken says its because of "mic feedback" but once your a target you get exactly why they make eveyone wear headphones.
With headphones on they subliminally direct victims with very low suggestive whispers mixed into their radio shows music. Combine this with them being able to manipulate their own individual outputs sound volume, which they control on the server side, they can pick what individual people hear and what at any given time. They decide who you hear on the server and change the volume controls for them. They can make some really low or off for those trying to investigate. They control who hears what and know who is who.
This team will find absolutely everything they can about you prior to using thier sugjestive and threatning program. They Introduce pictures that mean something only to the target, inducing paranoia while they watch and listen thru all of your circumvented devices. They are very aware of what makes you tick. They know your work schedule and use it for work stalking along side of this. I received multiple threating letters to my work and home addressed to my screen name from this group.
Fyrstikken tells people to sell their houses to buy crypto then dumps it on them. He has done many pump and dump scams. Quatloo being one of the first I witnessed and was done multiple times thru 2016 and 2017 them. It should be investigated for fraud. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655793.0
Congratulations @steembasicincome! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :
You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word
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!sbi status
Posted using Partiko Android
Hi @lologom!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.!sbi status
Hi @guruvaj!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.On steem?
Self proclaimed community watchdogs are actually hacking and stalking people.
This group https://steemit.com/@steemspeak is ran by https://steemit.com/@fyrstikken, They are hacking people that enter this discord server https://discordapp.com/invite/sqxV63P . Once you are hacked they profile you long enough to know all of your activities. They introduce workplace gangstalking visits and bring it to your attention cleverly and discretly so only you get it. They are very covert and tricky with everthing they say and do in this server. Some claim to have worked for or are working with the FBI and the NSA. Mixed with decomisioned traders and coding criminals, Its a scary mix of creepy people and thier intent is to drive you crazy and deplete everything you have ever aquired in life, even your freedom.
My hacking started with them introducing ransomeware that has options, dump my coin or delete my system drive. They acnowledged this to me in the server as it happened.
This hacking and stalking is done so they can manipulate the target to pump and dump for them. Threating and Making victims wear head phones, so nobody in your household can hear thier dramitization towards you. In 2017 this server was sidemarked as a drama show for entertainment purposes only as en excuse to say whatever they want all the way down to killing a politician. They have a server side command called "hey asshole" making a promt come up instructing everyone to wear headphones. They want everyone wearing headphones so nobody in your vicinity can hear them mess with you. Fystikken says its because of "mic feedback" but once your a target you get exactly why they make eveyone wear headphones.
With headphones on they subliminally direct victims with very low suggestive whispers mixed into their radio shows music. Combine this with them being able to manipulate their own individual outputs sound volume, which they control on the server side, they can pick what individual people hear and what at any given time. They decide who you hear on the server and change the volume controls for them. They can make some really low or off for those trying to investigate. They control who hears what and know who is who.
This team will find absolutely everything they can about you prior to using thier sugjestive and threatning program. They Introduce pictures that mean something only to the target, inducing paranoia while they watch and listen thru all of your circumvented devices. They are very aware of what makes you tick. They know your work schedule and use it for work stalking along side of this. I received multiple threating letters to my work and home addressed to my screen name from this group.
Fyrstikken tells people to sell their houses to buy crypto then dumps it on them. He has done many pump and dump scams. Quatloo being one of the first I witnessed and was done multiple times thru 2016 and 2017 them. It should be investigated for fraud. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655793.0
!sbi status
Posted using Partiko Android
Hi @onestopfacts!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.I'm an idiot. And not that smart, so I'm going to do my best to understand the proposed changes...
The only thing effected would be bonuses people get for upvoting your content?
Nothing else changes? Sorry for being a little slow. I blame the weather :)
That's the only change we are proposing. The core units/sponsoring mechanism is still working as intended with a minimum of abusive behavior around it.
Thanks for your response and the Resteem.
I think you should phase it out on any SBI comments and sbi2~10 posts as you mentioned, but leave it for the main.
However, I think for the main account's posts it should be left at 2:1 ie 10cent vote = 5cents towards the balance. The voters get back a little more from curation anyway.
I remember reading a post from @holger80 awhile ago about how he set up his auto vote program to vote for SBI's accounts whenever his VP reaches 100% to prevent it from going to waste. So I still see a purpose for this and it will give people a chance to get out 1 a day.
It would definitely prevent abuse, but still give people somewhat of a reason to vote for you.
I agree that's a fair compromise. We already have comments and 2-10 set as a separate dial in our configurations, so it's easy to tune them to 0 while only tuning the main account to 50%.
Using upvotes as VP overflow was part of the reason we offered rewards on all posts/comments. The potential for abuse was always there, but the incidence rate was very low until HF21.
Good to know it wouldn't be difficult from a back end perspective. I haven't heard many say it would be unfair and it wouldn't be too difficult to change if people did have a problen with it.
I don't think anyone had a serious problem with vote trading before hf21, except for a few people who still have other priorities at the moment. Also, there were much better ways of abusive rewards back then, and SBI has always been of limited size compared to whales, so SBI abuse wouldn't have made sense for the large and visible accounts.
I think that 50% on all main level posts is a fair compromise. This helps support the sustainability by growing the secondary accounts directly and they only post like once a week or less anyways. it's a really small amount of rewards at 50% that we are talking about, but it helps keep the program strong.
A side note, I'd love for a few larger account holders to start a new account without telling anyone this is what they are doing. They can use all their knowledge of steem, but none of their contacts to try and grow their account. After 3 months share with everyone how much effort they put in and the results of that effort. Then be honest how much of their success was due to knowledge of the platform. Even with this knowledge I think most would be shocked at how hard it really is to start off.
Programs like SBI are really helpful in keeping smaller accounts active and growing. Gut it and we will really have issues around here IMO.
#sbi-skip
Even Josephbagreed it wouldn't be difficult to do. I don't know of anyone who is against that compromise. It will still allow whales to maximize sbi votes, but your next suggestion is intriguing.
I feel I would do better if I started a new account too. The best example is justineh. If you already know how to use Steem, it's a huge advantage. Also your real networks can easily handle a change of account name.
Doing it blind with changing other sns like discord too could work to fool people a little longer, but I guess your main idea is starting with less SP.
The networks have the real value and newSteem involes much less direct trade offs. It would give persistant abusers a chance to see their real rewards. I imagine a few already have real accounts anyway.
!shop
Posted using Partiko Android
Hi~ steembasicincome!
@bluengel has gifted you 1 SHOP!
Currently you have： 2 SHOP
View or Exchange
Are you bored? Play Rock,Paper,Scissors game with me!SHOPPlease go to steem-engine.com.Rock
Posted using Partiko Android
It’s a tie! 平局！再来！下回我再出拳头！
On steem?
Self proclaimed community watchdogs are actually hacking and stalking people.
This group https://steemit.com/@steemspeak is ran by https://steemit.com/@fyrstikken, They are hacking people that enter this discord server https://discordapp.com/invite/sqxV63P . Once you are hacked they profile you long enough to know all of your activities. They introduce workplace gangstalking visits and bring it to your attention cleverly and discretly so only you get it. They are very covert and tricky with everthing they say and do in this server. Some claim to have worked for or are working with the FBI and the NSA. Mixed with decomisioned traders and coding criminals, Its a scary mix of creepy people and thier intent is to drive you crazy and deplete everything you have ever aquired in life, even your freedom.
My hacking started with them introducing ransomeware that has options, dump my coin or delete my system drive. They acnowledged this to me in the server as it happened.
This hacking and stalking is done so they can manipulate the target to pump and dump for them. Threating and Making victims wear head phones, so nobody in your household can hear thier dramitization towards you. In 2017 this server was sidemarked as a drama show for entertainment purposes only as en excuse to say whatever they want all the way down to killing a politician. They have a server side command called "hey asshole" making a promt come up instructing everyone to wear headphones. They want everyone wearing headphones so nobody in your vicinity can hear them mess with you. Fystikken says its because of "mic feedback" but once your a target you get exactly why they make eveyone wear headphones.
With headphones on they subliminally direct victims with very low suggestive whispers mixed into their radio shows music. Combine this with them being able to manipulate their own individual outputs sound volume, which they control on the server side, they can pick what individual people hear and what at any given time. They decide who you hear on the server and change the volume controls for them. They can make some really low or off for those trying to investigate. They control who hears what and know who is who.
This team will find absolutely everything they can about you prior to using thier sugjestive and threatning program. They Introduce pictures that mean something only to the target, inducing paranoia while they watch and listen thru all of your circumvented devices. They are very aware of what makes you tick. They know your work schedule and use it for work stalking along side of this. I received multiple threating letters to my work and home addressed to my screen name from this group.
Fyrstikken tells people to sell their houses to buy crypto then dumps it on them. He has done many pump and dump scams. Quatloo being one of the first I witnessed and was done multiple times thru 2016 and 2017 them. It should be investigated for fraud. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655793.0
Oh my God！我竟然不知道你想说什么！
@tipu nominate
@tipu curate
Posted using Partiko Android
What means upvoting bonuses ?
If participants disagree with fundamental changes, can they then return their shares?
I see many changes here (Steemit) at the moment and I cannot agree with all of them.
What is going to happen at SBI? Are these changes just a beginning?
Since upvoting bonuses are a bonus for upvoting, they don't affect the core economic logic for regular subscription units very much. We would consider it to be an immaterial change that does not trigger the refund option.
That said, the total composition of upvotes received varies from account to account, and some with a high percentage coming from upvoting bonuses might be refunded on their subscription units.
Thanks for the quick answer. Everything okay. At the moment here is a lot of anxiety so my question.
This means that SBI will continue as before and that was important to me. So far SBI has done a great job, thank you.
It's a shame that quality posts can't just stand up on their own legs without having to make it happen.
From day 1 this has always been for members to assist each other, phasing out old ideas moving toward new may be a better option.
Thanks for clarification and thoughts to move forward.
On steem?
Self proclaimed community watchdogs are actually hacking and stalking people.
This group https://steemit.com/@steemspeak is ran by https://steemit.com/@fyrstikken, They are hacking people that enter this discord server https://discordapp.com/invite/sqxV63P . Once you are hacked they profile you long enough to know all of your activities. They introduce workplace gangstalking visits and bring it to your attention cleverly and discretly so only you get it. They are very covert and tricky with everthing they say and do in this server. Some claim to have worked for or are working with the FBI and the NSA. Mixed with decomisioned traders and coding criminals, Its a scary mix of creepy people and thier intent is to drive you crazy and deplete everything you have ever aquired in life, even your freedom.
My hacking started with them introducing ransomeware that has options, dump my coin or delete my system drive. They acnowledged this to me in the server as it happened.
This hacking and stalking is done so they can manipulate the target to pump and dump for them. Threating and Making victims wear head phones, so nobody in your household can hear thier dramitization towards you. In 2017 this server was sidemarked as a drama show for entertainment purposes only as en excuse to say whatever they want all the way down to killing a politician. They have a server side command called "hey asshole" making a promt come up instructing everyone to wear headphones. They want everyone wearing headphones so nobody in your vicinity can hear them mess with you. Fystikken says its because of "mic feedback" but once your a target you get exactly why they make eveyone wear headphones.
With headphones on they subliminally direct victims with very low suggestive whispers mixed into their radio shows music. Combine this with them being able to manipulate their own individual outputs sound volume, which they control on the server side, they can pick what individual people hear and what at any given time. They decide who you hear on the server and change the volume controls for them. They can make some really low or off for those trying to investigate. They control who hears what and know who is who.
This team will find absolutely everything they can about you prior to using thier sugjestive and threatning program. They Introduce pictures that mean something only to the target, inducing paranoia while they watch and listen thru all of your circumvented devices. They are very aware of what makes you tick. They know your work schedule and use it for work stalking along side of this. I received multiple threating letters to my work and home addressed to my screen name from this group.
Fyrstikken tells people to sell their houses to buy crypto then dumps it on them. He has done many pump and dump scams. Quatloo being one of the first I witnessed and was done multiple times thru 2016 and 2017 them. It should be investigated for fraud. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=655793.0
Hi @steembasicincome!
Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 6.002 which ranks you at #322 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has not changed in the last three days.
In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 71 contributions, your post is ranked at #2. Congratulations!
Evaluation of your UA score:
Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server
!sbi status
Hi @marcus0alameda!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.Hello fellow @steembasicincome
Your post was upvoted with 100% ($0.0172) because @dragonblades is an awesome member of s77assistant and use his/her power to upvote your post.
If you want to learn more about me and my functionalities visit one of my daily reports.
I will be happy to support you.
At the current time my full vote worth $0.0172 but with your help this can change.
Delegating power will increase my vote worth and your reward.
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Make sure you have at least 15 SP left on your account.
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!sbi status
Hi @public-money!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.!sbi status
Hi @oldandintheway!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.Congratulations @steembasicincome!
Your post was mentioned in the Steem Hit Parade in the following category:
!sbi status
Posted using Partiko Android
Hi @logiclemon!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.I have to admit. I don't like how this whole hf22 thing is slowly going.
It feels like that some abusers and whales are now enforcing more or less rules on every system around them.
I get that we should do something against the abuse of that system, which I already have mentioned months ago. The comment voting was too much even back then.
But also reducing the rewards from voting for the one post from the main account to 50%? That's a little bit too much.
I'm pretty sure that 1 vote won't be enough for the abusers, because they are relying on the 10 votes/day sheme. But 1 vote paid back 100% into the system for the normal casual posting user seems like a good way to balance both.
The whole sustainability part and an incentive for the users to upvote SBI (And push it with that to the top over and over again for visibility and promotion for the program which is great. Always.)
I've been thinking a lot about this trade-off over the last few days. It's a bit more development, but I was thinking 100% match up to the our minimum upvote level and 50% above that. Most small accounts have upvotes lower than 0.02, so would not be limited at all. It does increase the risk of multi-account abuse, though.
I would even go higher with that system, like up to a specific SP amount which is necessary to be classified as something else than plankton.
But I don't see any reason for that system to be under abuse. Using multiple accounts to farm that is totally overkill. They need to get those accounts, setting up those upvotes and then posting at least stuff which is "good" enough not to be downvoted while staying under the radar. I don't think that this is possible in a reasonable scale.
On another note: This basically frees up (almost) 50% of those rewards.
How about pushing that flat distribution again? I would love to see that sbi provides a basic income for every participant in sbi. Driving this whole discussion to a good end for everybody (at least for unitholders.)
I'm pretty sure they don't like the standard units, but a basic support level for every account? That can't be bad.
Regular SBI units are effectively account-level curation, and not many have voiced serious objections.
!sbi status
Posted using Partiko Android
Hi @logiclemon!
Structure of your total SBI vote value:
Take Control! Include
#sbi-skipin your text or tags to have us skip any post or comment.A reduction of the upvote bonus to 50% for the main sbi account (and to 0% of all the other sbi accounts) maybe could turn out to be good at the end I think 😊 It will still help the SBI project continue to grow by received upvotes and - I'm not sure if this assumption is correct 😔 - the SP not used for upvote rewards then could be used for a better ROI of the SBI standard units.
It even could make the SBI project more attractive because of a faster ROI for standard units (which is pretty long right now 😔). Anyway, the standard units were the original SBI idea at the beginning.
And I'm not sure if I'm right - but it could be that the reduction of the upvote rewards would be an advantage for all the small steem accounts getting returns by SBI standard units.
However, well done @josephsavage ☺️
You are fundamentally correct. Your knowledge of program mechanics seems to be a little better than you give yourself credit for.
😊 oh, thank you...
First let me say @steembasicincome / @josephsavage, I appreciate the integrity with which you have approached writing this post. Specifically, wanting to hear from your members, before forging ahead with any changes to your program’s offerings to us.
My response to your proposal is pretty simple. While I have no problem with it, as written, from my perspective it is missing some vitally important information. Specifically, since this aspect of your program was implemented (at least as I understand it …) to “shore up” the need for improving the sustainability of SBI, what will the impact be on sustainability if this aspect of the program is discontinued? Perhaps somewhere the impact of this aspect of your program on its overall sustainability has been reported on, but I am unaware of it.
I can assume the answer is you would hope your program’s members would continue to upvote your posts, expecting nothing in return. Understood, but … It is hard to imagine you would have implemented this to begin with, had not the need to incentivize your members in some manner been present. Anyway, rather than make any assumptions, I would prefer to hear a direct response on any concerns about the projected impact to the program’s sustainability, should this proposal be carried out.
While not directly related to this point of this post, I have a question on the broader issue of the impact of “New Steem” on your program, since that is what has "gotten the ball rolling" in the first place. Have you given any consideration to building a downvote mechanism? Overall, the program’s ”SP power” is considerable and your member’s presumably have a share of this controversial post HF
21/ 22 feature of our Steem blockchain as well.Thanks in advance for your response!
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Thank you for expressing your thoughts and questions on the matter. We have looked at the expected impact on our sustainability metrics. Since HF22, author rewards contribute <20% to our sustainability, and a significant portion of that comes from our top 10 upvoters. Since those are in part motivated by upvoting bonuses, we expect to lose at least half of our author rewards from this change.
However... those ten accounts are typically upvoted at 100% across most or all of our voting accounts, and we earn below average curation on those upvotes. We expect to make back most (if not all) of our sustainability 'losses' from the change in improved curation rewards. In addition, many of our upvoters are likely to continue, especially if we only cut to 50% instead of 0%. The ratio of votes received to bonuses rewarded will improve and hopefully offset any remaining sustainability impact.
There are some unknown elements, but we hope that our sustainability metrics will actually improve from this change, even though our total rewards may decline some.
With regards to downvoting... we have done a few manual downvotes here and there and have put some thought into a more broadly automated solution. However... we think that automated downvotes can be extremely problematic (worse for Steem than bid-bots and other behaviors that they target). We would like to find some quality downvote trails to follow, but most have a little different perspective on what constitutes abuse.
Thank you for your in depth response @sbi-booster / ?...? 🙂. This ...
... is certainly encouraging to hear, as a preliminary projection. We will look forward to hearing how this unfolds, as you have many supporters hopeful of seeing the SBI program not only survive, but thrive going forward.
On downvoting, while I understand how "sensitive" and problematic their use can be, nonetheless I believe there is too much at stake to avoid utilizing the significant SP power the SBI program wields, for the benefit of our Steem blockchain. I hope to hear more on this topic.
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All @sbi-booster responses are written by @josephsavage :)
We agree about the responsibilities of stake, which is why we have done some manual downvoting already (and plan to do more) but have not configured any automated downvoting.
Okay, thank you @josephsavage! 🙂
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This post has received a 3.13 % upvote from @drotto thanks to: @sbi-booster.
🚩 \ ...dusts off her keyboard~ / 🚩
@steembasicincome! This is my first comment since a long time - I'm in the middle of writing my 'Where have I been?' post but my hiatus means I will have lost a lot of follower momentum so I'm glad that my SBI balance grows no matter if I've been active or not. Having a voting rule for your posts helps a lot too to grow from upvote rewards.
Speaking of voting rules, perhaps rule parameters for receiving upvote (or to receive your full vote balance value) should be introduced, like perhaps word count or if previous post received more than 5 downvotes your SBI upvote receives a penalty, and if your previous 2 posts each have 5+ downvotes then your SBI upvote are suspended until a post receives less than 5 downvotes.
OR something. I always give different examples and use cases for what I'm thinking, so keep in mind that the above paragraph was strictly an example to illustrate my idea and I do not mean for those exact rules to be implemented, but I do think people should need more than just 'money' invested in order to be rewarded with lifetime upvotes. They should also need to invest quality and time (By time I just mean spending time creating their creations)
Another thing is you could promote some trusted community members to screen new enrollments and maybe once a week each trusted member could take a peek at the authors who had received SBI votes that week.. and just put anybody not up to standards on a 'watch list' and maybe they send a polite message if two weeks in a row they aren't up to snuff..
I don't know, again just idea bouncing around in my head that I can't yet think of a good example that will sell the idea perfectly.. but I just hope to illustrate my thoughts because..
I have seen quite a few SBI votes going to crap posts, sometimes it's not even a crappy author but they just don't realise the implications or they are the type who don't understand why buying 5 bot-votes for a post with less than 50 words is considered abuse by most.. You know, the truly
naive oneswho mean no harm but just need guidance.Sometimes though it's just lazy people trying to make as much profit on their crap as they can.
I'm glad to come on to this old post and see that the result turned out more favourable than the original proposal.
From reading the comments in here I am going to assume the change made to upvote rewards is that the rewards value in return for our votes will decrease 0.10 per week until we've reached a return of 0.5x our regards value?
So we are pretty much there as of next week?
Is that the only change that has been made to SBI? Is it the only planned change to SBI? You may have a post talking about delegation rewards already, but let me just say - without good incentive to delegate, I would not delegate. This is speaking as a small account though.
That may sound greedy or whatever but remember that I give up my vote value through delegation, which in turn also effects my curation rewards on the posts I vote for. So if I am delegating my SP, it better be for a good reason.
So with that said, I don't think delegation rewards should change.. Perhaps get better, even! Well, no.. It's great right now..
I only mention this because it was mentioned in this post that delegation rewards were being contemplated
Have I missed any other, even minor changes in the past month?
<3 I LOVE SBI!
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We decided to make the decrease to 0.50x multiplier last over the same time period as originally proposed for decrease to 0x. That means we are doing 0.05x per week decrease every week instead of 0.10x. We are only a few weeks into it so it hasn't moved very far yet.
We don't intend to make any changes to delegation right now. Delegation for rewards is still a widely accepted practice on Steem (and one that we think is overall postivie for Steem).
I have at various points put a lot of thought into adding quality score elements to the upvoting system, but additional complication has to 100% be worth the development cost and the extra difficulty in helping people understand it. In this case, we think that trusting the 'wisdom of the crowd', while backstopping that with active blacklists is a much more simple process and works almost as well.
The issues we have seen lately are that long-time Steemians that have done a lot of good for their communities (and built up quite a high SBI level in the process) have entered a negative sentiment stage because of more recent developments in Steem. As such, these members have had dramatic collapse in their content quality but nobody is bothering to report them to us.
We are happy to investigate any reports received, and we even have a channel in our Discord specifically for reporting low quality posts that have SBI votes on them (especially spam/fraud/plagiarism which are explicitly identified as abusive in our FAQ).
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Hi @lammbock!
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